tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6570809348314913884.post5415388471514967115..comments2009-10-05T13:47:39.519-04:00Comments on Summorum Pontificum: Fr. Z. on Cardinal Hoyos' remarksPatrick Archboldhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/13230114519933936165noreply@blogger.comBlogger6125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6570809348314913884.post-74381817511737469482008-09-20T04:07:00.000-04:002008-09-20T04:07:00.000-04:00So much for Fr Z's reference to "fons et culmen" v...So much for Fr Z's reference to "fons et culmen" vis-a-vis Eurcharistic celebration: "fons et culmen" is truly reserved for the Council itself since it is itself seen and regarded as the fons et culmen of the Church.<BR/><BR/>And which "four conditions" did Bishop Fellay "fail to meet"? There were five conditions reportedly set by the Cardinal.<BR/>The second condition is totally inapplicable to SSPX. They pray for the Holy Father. I stopped attending the local NO when the pp exceeded even his own hitherto brazen mocking of John Paul II and our Metropolitan, George Cardinal Pell. Sadly, by their conduct,the NO congregation supported the parish priest's weekly behaviour.<BR/><BR/>Anthony O'Brien's observations on lack of attempt to bring the Traditional Rite into conformity with Sacrosanctum Concilium belies his ignorance. He should read the document and afterwards attempt to find any trace of Sacrosanctum Concilium in the Novus Ordo Missae. The Anglican Communion Service of the 16th century is the fons et culmen of the NO.Leonardhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/07212454264631665648noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6570809348314913884.post-15045204501545127192008-09-19T23:27:00.000-04:002008-09-19T23:27:00.000-04:00Again, I'm seeing insolence against ecclesiastical...Again, I'm seeing insolence against ecclesiastical authority. Prima's remark about H. H. +Pope Paul VI displays typically Traditionalist intellectual dimunition. If only he'd read <I>The Liturgy Documents 1963-1979</I> and <I>The Reform of the Liturgy 1948-1975</I> he would see how cautious His Holiness was with regards to the reformed Rite. And let us not forget his apostolic constitution <I>Missale Romanum</I>, which represents an more solemn level of theological certitude.<BR/><BR/>My point with respect to <I>Sacrosanctum concilium</I> and the liberal use of the Extraordinary Form is that I see no initiative taken by <I>anyone</I> to bring the 1962 Missal in conformity to the reforms of an Ecumenical Council. Nothing from ch. 3 of the dogmatic constitution is observed by those who celebrate according to the Extraordinary Form.<BR/><BR/>H.H. Pope +Benedict XVI's granting liberty for a wider use of the 1962 Missal was fully in keeping with his role as being the visible sign of ecclesial unity (cf. <I>Lumen gentium</I>, n. 23). In addition for his (rightful) admiration for so venerable a Rite, it was his responsibility to make a concession so that the Traditionalists do not fall into schism, and to bring back those who have forsaken Christ and his Church. It would be somewhat analogous to Rome's concession regarding girls to serve at the altar.M. Anthony O'Brienhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/05642403595655986371noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6570809348314913884.post-86901724253097636052008-09-19T11:20:00.000-04:002008-09-19T11:20:00.000-04:00"He is defensive of the Traditionalists' insolence...<I>"He is defensive of the Traditionalists' insolence towards ecclesiastical authority"</I><BR/><BR/>Actually, no, he is simply sensitive to the victims of the insolent bishops who have, by various nefarious methods, undermined and stopped the implementation of Summorum Pontificum.<BR/><BR/>The problem is these intransigent bishops, not their victims who are crying out to PCED for relief from their bishops' insolence.<BR/><BR/>I hate using the terminology of victim hood and abuser, but it is most appropriate here. The bishops are liturgical abusers. <BR/><BR/>For years the Church successfully silenced the victims of clerical abuse by attacking the victims and their families in a fashion eerily similar to the recent attacks of Cardinal Hoyos.<BR/><BR/>But those days are over. The abuse -- sexual and liturgical -- is well known and recognized, and the victims will no longer be silenced.<BR/><BR/>And attacking the victims as if they were simply displaying "insolence towards ecclesiastical authority" just won't wash any longer.Brian Kopphttp://www.blogger.com/profile/02575906703463685178noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6570809348314913884.post-52867639674278844842008-09-19T10:17:00.000-04:002008-09-19T10:17:00.000-04:00M. Anthony O'Brien,Bringing the "Tridentine Rite" ...M. Anthony O'Brien,<BR/><BR/>Bringing the "Tridentine Rite" into "conformity" with Sacrosanctum concilium might have been feasible had Paul VI not jumped the gun and brought the NO into being. Once that happened, the TLM quickly became an artifact for many Catholics. The NO was "the Mass" and only a few traditional Catholics still kept up with the TLM.<BR/><BR/><BR/>As to your statement: "It's the same as confusing the Faith with the expression of the Faith," how do you square this with Pope Benedict's interest in de-restricting the TLM as well as his interest in reconfiguring the "mode of expression" of the Eucharist of the NO? Obviously, it must be of some importance; it's not simply contingent. If it were, Benedict would simply have accepted the principles of inculturation.Primahttp://www.blogger.com/profile/02734931487411592018noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6570809348314913884.post-19522806870621038602008-09-19T01:28:00.000-04:002008-09-19T01:28:00.000-04:00I found Fr. Z's response to Cardinal Hoyos' statme...I found Fr. Z's response to Cardinal Hoyos' statment unsatisfactory. He is defensive of the Traditionalists' insolence towards ecclesiastical authority and extols American ethos over Christian virtues. And regarding those who get "worked up" over which rite of the Eucharist should be celebrated, my suspicion is that it is not the <I>Eucharist</I> as such but the <I>mode of expression</I> that is the object of such excitement. It's the same as confusing the Faith with the <I>expression</I> of the Faith.<BR/><BR/>Moreover, given the level of authority with which an Ecumenical Council is invested, I wonder why, over the last four decades, very little, if any, attempt was to be made to bring the Tridentine Rite into conformity with <I>Sacrosanctum concilium</I>. Let us not forget that even Marcel Lefebvre voted for it!M. Anthony O'Brienhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/05642403595655986371noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6570809348314913884.post-70060486289588218972008-09-18T13:15:00.000-04:002008-09-18T13:15:00.000-04:00Doc:I have to thank you for posting this. Since a ...Doc:<BR/><BR/>I have to thank you for posting this. Since a segment of my continuing series immediately follows it when scrolling down, it makes the perfect lead-in to my work.<BR/><BR/>I owe ya, Doc. Next time I'm in Johnstown, I'm buying you a drink.David L Alexanderhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/13871706129906941567noreply@blogger.com